The NY Times Interviewed a Real Sociopath and It Doesn’t Make Me Feel Any Better About Them

There was a story circulating recently about how often men think about ancient Rome. My daughter found this amusing and quizzed me about how often I think about ancient Rome. The answer in my case was not very often. But there is something I think about pretty often that’s like the Rome thing. I think about psychopaths/sociopaths. Not every day but maybe every week or so. There are more than a few in politics and also in business (Kim Jong Un came to mind).

Sociopaths are on a spectrum, from people who have some slight tendencies to those on the far end who genuinely lack human empathy. We all probably encounter some of these people on a regular basis but if you’ve ever had a genuine sociopath come close to your life, you probably remember it. They may be relatively rare, but they are (to me) frightening. At any given moment they could do or say absolutely anything, especially if they’ve decided you are an obstacle to something they want or want to do.

Last week the NY Times did an interview with a sociopath named Patric Gagne. Gagne wrote a book about her experiences which is called “Sociopath.” She describes stabbing a boy in the head with a pencil in elementary school. She later got into stealing cars and breaking into homes just for the thrill of it.

I think the point of the interview was to reassure the neurotypical among us that having sociopaths in our midst isn’t necessarily so bad. But for me, the interview didn’t convince me of that. On the contrary, I found some of it pretty chilling.

In the book, you write about stabbing a classmate with a pencil when you were a kid, and then as you got older trespassing.

and stealing cars. You don’t succumb to those sociopathic compulsions anymore. How did you learn to control these urges? As a kid, I didn’t understand why I was acting out the way that I was. All I knew was I felt this pressure, and something in my brain was telling me, Punch that kid, and you’ll feel better. As I got older I understood, OK, there’s a name for this, there is a whole group of people who share this diagnosis. Once I understood that I wasn’t out in space untethered and going crazy, I was on the path to understanding that when I had those feelings of “go steal a car,” I could go, Yes, I could do that, but now I understand what’s going on. That understanding helped break the cycle — or at least redirect the compulsion toward something less destructive.

What does that redirecting look like in practice? 

Every once in a while, I will have an urge to do something destructive just because I can, and my redirect is, Do you want this destructive behavior? Or do you want to continue to maintain this life that you have, which requires that you not do those things? I have to have that conversation with myself.

Gagne tries to spin this as a positive or at least neutral, i.e. it doesn’t really matter why she does the right things only that she has her reasons and does them.

Are you able to describe how you’ve built a sense of morality? 

Just because I don’t care about someone else’s pain, so to speak, doesn’t mean I want to cause more of it. I enjoy living in this society. I understand that there are rules. I choose to follow those rules because I understand the benefits of this world, this house where I get to live, this relationship I get to have. That is different from people who follow the rules because they have to, they should, they want to be a good person. None of those apply to me. I want to live in a world where things function properly. If I create messes, my life will become messy. I think people are uncomfortable with the idea of, You don’t really care? What does it matter? What does it matter why I choose to help the woman cross the street? Why does it matter why I choose to pick up a wallet and hand it to the person in as opposed to keeping it? It’s not because I’m a good person. It’s not because I would feel shame or guilt. But why does that matter?

Since she asked, I think it matters because the web of mutual feelings that most of us experience is somewhat predictable. People aren’t generally going to walk up to your boss and make up a crazy story about you or send police to your house based on a lie. Most people would never think to do those things. But for a sociopath, those feelings and internal limits on behavior (what the rest of us would call normal) don’t exist. Anything is possible at any time. Having an internal struggle session over those decisions seems less reliable and more like rolling the dice. A bit later on, Gagne describes what it feels like to be a sociopath.

Well, I would say that one question that the book raised for me was the extent to which a lot of behaviors that people do could be considered sociopathic, and we just don’t understand them that way. Plenty of us do things that we know are bad because the transgressions feel good. 

It feels good. Why? I think it feels good because it feels free. To do something bad, it’s like, I don’t give a [expletive]. The consequences — be it internal guilt or getting thrown in jail — happen after. In this moment, I’m going to do this because it feels [expletive] great to just not care. That is what the sociopath experience is almost all the time.

You don not want to be around a person who decides in any given moment “I don’t give a [expletive].” You don’t want that person driving you to the airport, or watching your kids or even feeding your dog.

Real sociopaths from the far end of the spectrum are relatively rare. I think I’ve encountered 4 or 5 in my life, some directly and some indirectly through people I was close with. In every case it has been terrifying. And our system of laws is not set up to account for them. In fact, I think the neurotypical might eventually want to do something about that to make it harder for literally shameless liars and manipulators to take advantage of our system. Right now I don’t think we do enough to protect ourselves.

In any case, there are some good comments here. This is the #2 comment with nearly 2,000 upvotes.

My two cents having grown up beside a sociopath:  They may understand themselves better over time and with some work, and their outward behavior may improve.  But do not enter a close personal relationship with them.  To empathize and understand humans and their nature is important, and even useful to oneself. But save yourself from any personal involvement.

Another person with first-hand experience.

Charming. Until it’s not. Grew up with a brother with the condition, only none of us knew what it was for about 40 years. Utterly maddening, chaotic, and destructive to the family. We’re talking breaking and entering for thrills, joy ridding US Mail Jeeps at 2 AM while 13 years old, stealing anything/everything, and the ability to lie and manipulate everyone.

 To hear someone with the condition to write about it as some type of memoir or the third person is alarming. These people can only control some of what they do, but they are able to convince those around them otherwise. They don’t play by the same rules as the rest of us, and they never will. Ultimately they are con men/women (most are men), with visions of grandeur and no conscience. One only needs to look at our political system to see an example.

Lots of people think there’s more to this story than we got in the article.

Interesting. I was raised by one (who is also on the spectrum). I felt some type of love (need?) from this parent, but also experienced a complete blackout of empathy. This parent has always put our family in some danger (a variation of the book “Glass Castle”). I would say they found the danger and struggle quite thrilling. Our relationship is and has always been transactional. Unconditional love is not on the menu. My current lived experience is that this behavior doesn’t age well. The mask has slipped and what is underneath is a more raw version. It ain’t pretty. This profile gave me a chill, as she is quite skilled. And forgive me if I am unable to take her at her word, but a good read nonetheless.

Have you interacted with a real sociopath? If so you probably remember it.